Q&A with Sue Wagner and John Johnson
After a more than 20 years as partners, working together on more than 40 Broadway productions and racking up 27 awards in the process, New York-based theater producers Sue Wagner and John Johnson decided to hang their own shingle in 2019. Now principals at their own company, Wagner Johnson Productions, they recently sat down to discuss their own personal histories, what makes their partnership unique, and the ins and outs of the business they both love.
Okay, let’s start at the beginning. How did you get started in the theater business?
SW: I grew up going to the theater, loving the theater, and knowing that I wanted to be a producer. Like most other Long Island girls my age, my childhood hero was Hal Prince. So, after college I wind up getting a job interview with Mr. Prince himself, and before the big meeting his associate tells me they are really looking to hire someone who is committed to being an executive assistant for the long haul, so if I have aspirations of producing on my own I’m probably not the right person for this particular job. Basically, if I want this job, I now know that I’m going to have to come up with a story to convince this legend that I’m committed to being a lifelong administrative assistant. So when I sit down with Mr. Prince I start telling him that, because I’m about to get married and that my fiancé is an actor, working as his assistant is the best way that I can fulfill my dream of working in the theater while also creating some kind of financial stability for my family. Well, he spent about four minutes listening to this nonsense and then sat back, put his glasses on his head and said, “You want to be producer. You are completely passionate about producing theater, and that’s what you should go and do. So what if your husband’s an actor? A life in the arts is about a life in the arts. You may not ever make any money, but you won’t regret it for a second. Go follow your dreams and stop wasting your time here with me!” Next thing I knew I was on the other side of his door. And because of that life lesson, I took a job working for [legendary theatrical producer] Liz McCann, and that’s where I met John.
JJ: I had gone to Fordham University, where my advisor was Larry Sacharow. Larry had directed the original production of Three Tall Women at the Promenade Theatre, which Liz McCann produced. He told me, “If you want to work in the business of theater, you have to work with Liz. When it’s time for you to intern, I will get you an internship at her office.” And so I interviewed with Liz in late 2000 and I started as an intern in early 2001. At the time, she and [her producing partner] Joey Parnes were just closing the Tony Award winning play Copenhagen, were about to open Edward Albee’s The Play About The Baby, and were just starting their run as managing producers of the Tony Awards. I held that internship for two years until I graduated from college, and at that point Joey needed an assistant so I became a full-time employee, and Sue joined less than a year later. And we spent nearly 20 incredible years working together in that office before starting WJP in 2019.
What was the most important thing you learned in those early years that you still draw on today?
SW: So much of my early education came from watching Liz talk to artists, especially all those years we worked with Edward Albee. When she had a note, she never said, “Here’s this note, now go fix it.” She would engage him in a dialogue, asking him a million questions about the meaning and intent behind a specific choice. And that’s the same way she talked to the lighting designer and the set designer, and everybody else who had a creative hand in the show. Everything is a collaboration, and the more you’re able to break down the hierarchy and get in the mud with everyone, the better the work tends to be. The other lesson I learned early on is that it’s smarter to be direct, transparent and candid, even when it’s hard.
JJ: For me, it’s the importance of having perspective. When you’re in production it’s so easy to let that one show become your entire world, but it’s absolutely vital to be able to zoom out and have a sense of everything else that is happening in a given season.
SW: Don’t you think that awareness came, in large part, from working on the Tony Awards for eight years?
JJ: No question. That job forces you to look at each season in its totality, and it’s a constant reminder that whatever show you might be producing in a given year is only one piece of that larger puzzle. And then I think you need to be able to zoom out even further, beyond midtown Manhattan, and understand what’s happening in culture, in society, what the zeitgeist is telling you. Nothing that we do happens in a vacuum, and the only way to make smart decisions as a producer is to maintain a deep awareness of the world around you.
Describe your role on a production.
JJ: Essentially, we build a production from the ground up, guiding each aspect from conception to execution. Then, once a show is up and running, it’s our job to make sure that every single person involved in that show is able to walk into work every day and do their job to the very best of their ability. That’s the core of what we do. But every production is a unique animal with its own unique needs.
SW: Exactly! Every show tells you what it needs, and our job is to be in service to those needs. You have to be able to reassure everyone that everything is going to be okay, and then work like crazy to make sure that everything really is indeed going to be okay.
What do you consider to be the WJP hallmark? The thing that makes you unique.
JJ: We treat business as a community, not an industry, and I think that’s something that still defines our approach. This sounds so trite, but we look at each production as the building of a family. We put an inordinate amount of energy into making sure that every single person involved feels a sense of belonging and a sense of ownership over their job. And every decision we make comes down to one key question: What’s best for the show? Quite often, the answer to that question is not the answer you want to hear, but it’s always the right answer.
SW: At the end of the day, it’s our job to support the work of the artists and be their advocates in making sure they have what they need to do their jobs brilliantly. I also think that John and I both share a deep reverence for what it is that we do and the people we get to do it with, but that doesn’t mean we can’t be irreverent. Yes, the job can be stressful, and the job can be challenging, but it’s show business and if you’re not having a lot of fun and a lot of laughs, you’re not doing it right.
What makes you two ideal partners?
SW: That’s easy. It’s yin and yang. We have different skill sets but we each understand and value what the other brings to the table.
JJ: Sue is much more detail oriented than I am. I tend to work from a much broader vantage point. Sue sees everything, and it allows her to diagnose problems before they ever have a chance to metastasize.
SW: Whereas John’s facility with and memory for numbers is astounding to me. It’s all very ‘A Beautiful Mind.’ I mean, who remembers what the grosses were for a show from 10 years ago? It all just gets stored in his brain.
JJ: You make me sound like a computer.
SW: Well it’s freakish, John! No, honestly, John’s best trait as a partner is that he is able to keep me and everyone around him calm. He’s like a Xanax. Part of that is the confidence he exudes, part of it is that you can rely on him to show up for you 100% of the time, and part of that is his unique ability to look five years down the road and see that whatever scary thing we’re currently dealing with is only temporary.
JJ: If we’re gushing, Sue’s best trait is her passion. It’s not just a joy to work alongside someone who is so passionate about what she does, it’s also that her passion fuels everyone around her. Whatever room Sue steps into, the love she has for the work is palpable and buoys the entire project.
SW: Also, my shoes.
JJ: Yes, also her shoes. And her sense of humor.
What’s the single most important thing you look for when you take on a new project?
SW: Authenticity. The creative impulses have to come from a place of authenticity. There are a million cynical reasons to make something, but only one pure one: because you have a great story you need to tell.
JJ: It’s all about the people we get to work with. It really boils down to chemistry.
What can other industries learn from the theater industry?
SW: I remember working on [Larry David’s Broadway play] Fish in the Dark, and there was a moment that just wasn’t getting a laugh. And Larry, one of the great all-time comic geniuses, turned to the entire room and said, “Why isn’t this working?” An impromptu brainstorming session ensued, and one of the actors came up with the joke that solved the problem and wound up getting a huge laugh every single night. It was such a great example of everyone leaving their egos at the door, collaborating constructively, and then letting the best idea win.
JJ: That’s exactly right, and I think part of what creates that ethos is the connection between the artists and the audience. Whether it’s a great joke landing with perfect timing in front of 1,000 theatergoers at a play like Fish in the Dark, two guys at desk leading 3,000 football fans in a chant during a live podcast like Men In Blazers, a legendary piece of literature keeping 18,000 high school students totally rapt for more than two hours at The Garden, or how the simple parting of curtains at the top of a staircase can cue a packed house to roar like crazy because they know Bette Midler’s about the blow the roof off the place. When it’s live, you know immediately if it’s working or not, because the final, most important collaboration is with the audience.
What does the theater industry need to do to adapt to a rapidly changing world? Where do you think the industry is headed over the next decade?
JJ: Well, before the coronavirus forced us to shut down, the big fear was how the digital revolution and enhanced in-home entertainment options might erode our audience base. What we’ve found is that the increased digitization of our world actually makes the live, in-person, tactile experience of going to the theater more valuable to audiences. We provide an experience that simply cannot be pirated or replicated in other formats. Now, of course, we’ve had to take an extended pause, which is horrible for all of us in the short term. In the long term, I think the shutdown helps our business in two ways. First: it creates a ton of pent-up demand. Nothing makes you want something more than being told you can’t have it. Second: the pause has given our community a chance to look inward and grapple with some longstanding issues when it comes to accessibility and equity and representation. Taking the time to do the hard work in creating a more equitable environment for everyone is going to ultimately bring about a more culturally relevant and sustainable American theater than we’ve seen in generations.
SW: I’d also like to think that we might start to see more public funding for the arts, in the way that the UK has really stepped in to help its theater community get back on its feet. That would be an incredible development.